Vaccines



Where can someone go to get good quality information about vaccines from a trustworthy source?

I get my information from people who trust and understand science.  The best resource for parents nervous about vaccinating would be Dr. Ari Brown’s page on the vaccine controversy.  She covers every major question about vaccines, and her answers are an intelligent rebuttal to the antivaccine celebrities. You can also check out the sites Vaccinate Your Baby and Anti-Antivax. Be sure to check out Science-Based Medicine’s overview on vaccines, which is written and edited by professional doctors who understand and appreciate the totality of the evidence.

The Q&A listed below are some of the answers to questions that I’ve investigated and found at reliable science-based sites.  I hope that they inspire you to continue researching.

Why does Science-Based Parenting defend vaccines?

I approach this “controversy” from an evidence-based perspective. The antivaccine advocates have failed to produce any legitimate research as proof that vaccines cause autism. Opponents to vaccination rely on anecdotes from parents searching for a reason that their child became autistic, but they completely fail to offer a biological explanation backed by quality science. Instead, the anti-vaccine argument quickly turns to a vast pharmaceutical conspiracy theory.

You and I may not completely trust the profit motivations of pharmaceutical corporations, but that doesn’t mean they are a cabal of evil overlords plotting to purposefully give children autism; the idea is ridiculous and without merit.

Vaccines are closely monitored- new vaccines can take up to ten years to be introduced in the schedule, a web site is set up to document adverse reactions, and all vaccines are kept in check by the CDC.  It’s easy to accuse members of the scientific community of being in the pocket of “Big Pharma”, but the best way to challenge research is to replicate the study or identify any systemic flaws.

At least 77% (often more) of children entering kindergarten have been vaccinated, but less than 1% have autism.  There is obviously not a direct correlation between vaccines and autism, which means that vaccine opponents must conclude that vaccines are triggering the genes for autism.  Doesn’t this take us back to square one – autism is genetic?  If antigens (proteins that induce the bodies immune system to produce antibodies) are causing autism (we don’t know that they are, but if…), we must look at the many antigens that are bodies are constantly exposed to on a daily basis and not just at vaccines.  We can’t raise our children in hermetically sealed plastic bubbles, and any parent that insists on an absolutely safe environment is falling victim to the ‘perfect solution‘ fallacy.

Who is this Andrew Wakefield guy who claims to have found a link between the MMR, autism, and bowel disorders?

He’s been completely discredited. If you want the longer version, you should check out Harriet Hall’s excellent article detailing the problems with Wakefield’s study.

Which studies disprove a link between thimerosal and autism?

American Journal of Preventive Medicine – August 2003 – Paul Stehr Green

Pediatrics – September 2003 – Kreesten Madsen

Journal of the American Medical Association – October 2003 – Anders Hviid

Pediatrics – September 2004 – Jon Heron

Pediatrics – September 2004 – Nick Andrews

Institute of Medicine – 2004 – a review of 200 epidemiological and biological studies or the relationship between thimerosal and autism

Pediatrics – July 2006 – Eric fombonne

The New England Journal of Medicine – September 2007 – Bill Thompson of the CDC

Archives of General Psychiatry – January 2008 – Robert Schechter and Judy Grether

Are vaccines filled with harmful toxins like antifreeze, formaldehyde, hydrochloric acid, and mercury?

No the ingredients in vaccines are not as toxic as Jenny McCarthy would have you think.  The dose makes the poison, not the toxin.

Ethylene glycol (antifreeze) is not an ingredient in vaccines;  the actual ingredient is polyethylene glycol, which sounds the same but is completely different.  It’s kind of like saying that salt has chlorine in it.

Trace inert amounts of formaldehyde can be found in vaccines, but only a microscopic amount compared to the amount encountered in auto exhaust and the modern environment.  We are even exposed to formaldehyde when we digest fruit.  It’s not some toxin thrown in for sinister purposes.  Formaldehyde insures that vaccines are sterilized so your children don’t get a flesh-eating Strep bacteria.  And if all that info isn’t enough, the point is moot because formaldehyde chemically breaks down in aqueous solutions like vaccines.

Hydrochloric Acid is being used on vaccines, but only to balance the PH titrates to neutralize alkaline vaccines.  We aren’t talking about vaccines dripping with bubbling acid.  Antivaccine activists who latch onto these toxins lack an understanding of chemistry, or they’re using these scary ”toxins” as scare tactics to fool the average person.

The origin of the toxin argument started with thimerosal, a preservative made from ethyl mercury.  Thimerosal was removed in 2002 from all mandatory childhood vaccines as a precaution, but doctors were allowed to use their leftover stockpiles after the recall.  A 2002 study of pediatric offices showed that no more than 2% of thimerosal vaccines remained in overstock.  Despite the 2002 recall and subsequent decrease in mercury-based vaccines, the rates of autism have continued to increase.  You can read more about the thimerosal controversy at the Mainstream Parenting blog (Part 1 and  Part 2).  The same increase in autism rates occured in European countries who eliminated thimerosal decades ago, to the argument that mercury causes autism has been dead for a long time.  If you’re worried about mercury, stay away from tuna sandwiches, not vaccines.

The failure of the thimerosal argument has only prompted the anti-vaccine activists to search for another toxin such as aluminum, a common ingredient in breast milk and formula.  The mainstream Parenting blog addresses the use of aluminum in vaccines.  It acts as an adjuvant to stimulate an adequate immune response.

How do we know whether the reason diseases declined were vaccines and not the advent of modern sanitation and hygiene?

There are no doctors, scientists, or scholars who take this claim seriously.  The CDC gives an excellent response to this myth here. If you are interested in more information about this question, visit Orac’s blog post on the subject.

Measles nearly disappeared three years after the introduction of it’s vaccine in the 1950s.  We can all agree that America had excellent sanitation and hygiene in the 50s.

There has been a 76-86% decrease in vericella (chicken pox) since the vaccine was introduced in the highly sanitized decade of the 1990s.

Japan, Great Britain, and Sweden relaxed their policies on the pertussis vaccine, and the result was skyrocketing rates of pertussis.    The same thing happened in the UK with a huge spike in measles rates after the MMR controversy.

Can’t immunized children still get the diseases for which they were innoculated?

Yes, but that fact can be misleading.

One study pointed out that unvaccinated students were 35 times more likely to contract measles compared to those who were vaccinated.  Vaccines work for 85-95% of immunized individuals.  Those who are not vaccinated for measles, for instance, have around a 95% chance of contracting the diseases if they are exposed [/source].  The risks are worth it.

Haven’t the rates of autism risen as the number of mandatory vaccines increased?

The increase of autism is real, but part of the skyrocketing rates are a statistical illusion caused by a widening of the autism spectrum and an increase in detection.  More vaccines have been added to the schedule, but the number of antigens have decreased in proportion.

What about Robert F. Kennedy’s hit piece in Salon and Rolling Stone that characterized a cabal of doctors and scientists conspiring in seclusion to protect vaccines for “Big Pharma”?

Skeptico and Orac both covered how this article quote mined and misrepresented public transcripts.  I encourage you to visit their criticisms or RFK Jr.  I also want to add that Rolling Stone was forced to publish several different corrections of the original article.  RFK Jr. still accuses the CDC of being in a conspiracy.  He has always said that thimerosal in vaccines trigger autism, and he stated to me personally that he still believes this despite the fact that autism rates have risen in the seven years since thimerosal was removed.

What about the legal victory of Hannah Poling?

Hannah Poling’s previous mitochondrial disorder was aggravated by vaccines causing multiple symptoms, two of which are on the autism spectrum.  This is a highly complex case of one girl, and is not an appropriate example of vaccines triggering autism.

123 Responses to Vaccines

  1. Angela says:

    I just wanted to let you know that the reasons for not vaccinating, or selectively doing so, go so far beyond autism. There are more things to consider than just autism, and also it should be considered that we know nothing about autism, so to rule anything out is premature.

  2. Ticktock says:

    I’m sure you know that the autism scare is the reason there has been a spike in parents who don’t vaccinate. You don’t list other reasons, but I doubt any of them are science-based.

    We don’t know the causes of autism, but we can certainly rule out vaccines based on several quality studies. Also, the flipside of your argument is that to rule specific things “in” is premature.

  3. NothingButTheTruth says:

    There is NO safe level of mercury in any carbon based life form…that includes us. We have mercury based fillings in our teeth, and we have millions of Americans that are being cremated with their mercury fillings still in their mouth. That mercury goes into the air that we breathe. I don’t believe in a link between autism and vaccines, but I DO know that there are trace amounts of mercury in our vaccines and dental fillings. Plus, I just google searched sodium flouride, ya know, the stuff in our toothpaste and drinking water that is supposed to make our teeth whiter? Well, I just found out that sodium flouride is the active ingredient in most rat poisons, and that we (the US)are the only advanced civilization that uses flouride in their water supply. Why? Thank God we have a new president that seems to actually care about us.

    • Ticktock says:

      There are safe levels of mercury. The dose makes the poison. You can find mercury in the average glass of tap water or in a slab of salmon.

      I think the mercury that you need to worry about is the kind coming from the coal fired power plants, not crematoriums. The mercury in our mandatory vaccines have been eliminated, and you can request thimerosal-free flu vaccines if you prefer. The mercury in dental fillings is locked in, but if you are afraid you can ask for ceramic fillings and take your chances with those.

      Actually, fluoride is a natural ingredient in water that we moderate so that it’s only one part per million. You need to google better. Hexafluorosilicic acid is the ingredient that makes calcium fluoride in water… not sodium fluoride. Britain puts fluoride in their salt. Australia uses fluoride. You are wrong.

  4. Hero says:

    I use sea-salt and our County in Britain and most of Europe does not have fluoride in the water. We use non fluoride toothpaste for our son (2 years old) because he swallows it. Fluoride does not have to be swallowed to be effective in reducing tooth decay. Toothpaste with fluoride is OK for adults if you choose to use it, but to put it in the water is a form of mass medication and potentially harmful and even fatal especially if a case of fluoride overfeed occurs.

    the following book has information about specific incidents of fluoride overfeed;
    Water Fluoridation Principles and Practices
    By Awwa, Bill Lauer, Frederick Rube

  5. Matt says:

    People who are against vaccinations are innately selfish (and let’s face it, ignorant) folk who are not only putting their own children at risk but also everyone else’s due to the diminished herd immunity.

  6. Thanks for ANOTHER great post. It is hard to defend vaccines because it is such a hot button issue. But it’s true: there’s a difference between anecdotes and science and science says vaccines are not the cause of autism. Now if only we could find what IS! Lenore “Free-Range Kids” SKenazy

  7. While the adamant pro-vaccine and against vaccine groups get most of the coverage, and the autism issues gets most of the press, the majority of people who question vaccine safety simply want just that–they want safe vaccines. They are not opposed to vaccinating their children, they just want issues to be addressed and not brushed aside. They want their children vaccinated as safely as possible, but for far too long, vaccines have been a “sacred cow.” Question anything, and you immediately lumped together with the extreme opposition.

    As a healthcare professional who worked for many years in pediatrics, I would say one issue is that we have no idea how safe it is to give an infant so many vaccines (some now give 5 at one time), and so close together. The human race has never had so many vaccines, and more and more keep being added to the vaccine schedule. An infant has an immature immune system, and to bombard it with so many different vaccines, all at the same time, and then at very close intervals–well, we have no idea. Don’t let anyone tell you that its “safe” because no one knows. There is no long term data.

    But what we do know is that there is a dramatic increase in life threatening allergies, for one. The number of people with asthma in the US. has increased throughout the 1980s and 1990s and shows no sign of abating. Could this be related to vaccines, even partly? That immune systems are out of whack? It’s possible.

    Anyway, those are the issues that I see. And when some doctors recommend a less intensive vaccine schedule, one less likely to cause damage or any adverse events, they get laughed at or told that they are “dangerous” or putting the child in danger. Just because someone came up with the current vaccination schedule, doesn’t mean its the best one. For instance, why are newborns being given a Hepatitis B vaccine the day after birth? Hep B is transmitted the same way as HIV, so why does a newborn need the vaccine? What’s wrong with waiting until school age with that one?

    • I.E. Acevedo says:

      Completely agree with you. I think that we are over vaccinating our kids and the increase in allergies, asthma and other diseases is devastating. I am having my first child in 6 weeks and I have decided not to vaccinate at birth and to wait more than 2 months to start a limited vaccine schedule. The fact is that no one knows for sure the real side effects of vaccines.

      • Simon says:

        What is the evidence we are over vaccinating, or that vaccines are linked with allergies or asthma?

        The childhood vaccination schedule is determined by experts in pediatrics, they will have read all the studies that suggest vaccination may be an issue, and any that contradict such findings, and formed an opinion based on the relative risks. Second guessing these experts without cold hard evidence means you may place your child at undue risk for no reason.

        There are times when the orthodox position lags behind the scientific evidence. Then there may be a case for dissent, but given the recent controversy over vaccines, you can be pretty sure advice from people like the CDC or AAP will be current.

        http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/3/653

        http://www.cispimmunize.org/

      • sillydaddy6 says:

        But Simon, all the CDC has is sixty years of data from hundreds of millions of people. Roxanne has her intuition. What’s wrong with exposing your children and the too-young-to-vaccinate infants of your neighbors to well-documented, totally avoidable risks based on a hunch?

    • Marco Mazzi says:

      Well said Roxanne. Consider that we were once insulating our homes with asbestos. We once exposed hundreds of US Navy sailors to nuclear testing in the Pacific. Smoking cigarettes were healthy and invigorating, we were told. All because, at the time, there was no scientific evidence to counter the absurdity of our actions. Simon claim that yours is an “argument from ignorance”. I say it’s an argument from instinct. Such pace, such strength in the American vaccination schedule gnaws at me, invades my logic, disturbs my instinct, regardless of the current studies. I will choose to adopt a general European schedule as I deem it less aggressive..more instinctual.

      • Simon says:

        Come on think skeptically. Sure Asbestos and Tobacco had unknown dangers, but you fail to mention all the things that turned out not to have unknown dangers for balance, poor logic that.

        As an aside quite a few people figured out tobacco smoking was bad for people when it was first introduced to England.

        Vaccines are protecting us from known dangers, and are tested in similar fashion to other medications. A logical conclusion of refusing the vaccination programme is to refuse all modern medicine, because despite the proven benefits there might indeed be as yet unknown downsides. Indeed the same logic would suggest we stop eating because common foodstuffs may have unknown downsides.

        UK vaccination schedule.
        http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Immunisation_Schedule

        The only significant difference in schedule I can see is the US vaccinate against Rotavirus, and Varicella. In the UK only medical personnel get routine Varicella vaccination.

    • Dad of 3 says:

      So many people making decisions on limited data.
      about 1/3 of the world has been exposed to Hep B. (MUCH less in NA) It is particularly brutal to childern as it is more apt to become chronic. It can live on a surface for days and is transmitted thru cuts and open sore OR sex. Get vaccinated,, perhaps not on day 1 but early on.

      An vaccinate your kids please,, 5 at once, 1 a week for 5 weeks whatever floats your boat,, but please trust the science.

      As to fluorides in water, here in Canada we readily do (I love the guy that writes “The US is the only civilized country……..” If he had finished it with “without universal healthcare” then he would have been factual, but instead….
      I work in the largest Environmental laboratory in NA, and there is all kinds of cool things in all drinking water,, (In the states NDMA is everywhere) BUT,, we are a robust organism that filters out impurities and cleanses itself.

      Wanna lower your kids risk of asthma,, open a window, take them to to the country, let them get dirty,,

  8. Ellen says:

    Kudos for this website – I found it from Science Based Medicine.

    Roxanne, I am not a medical professional, but from my reading I have learned that there are actually fewer antigens in the total number of vaccinations that are given today than were given in the polio vaccinations of yesteryear. Today’s vaccines are more targeted to the individual diseases. Dr. Mark Crislip did a great podcast on the relative levels of antigens in vaccines in his Quackcast series.

    And I’m curious about the link you make between asthma and vaccines. Is it just the correlation you noticed, that children now have more injections and there are more cases of asthma?

  9. greg praus says:

    ja and the soldiers that received the anthrax vaccine are doing awesome , and vaccines distributed to third world countries never had birth control in them, keep collecting the dividents from your big pharma shares

    • Karen says:

      No, not all vet’s who recieved those vaccines are “doing awsome”. Only 25% of the total Iraq Freedom forces had the vaccines that contained Squaline. Of those 25% that did get the squaline 95% of those person have gulf war vet syndrome. The references to these statistics can be found in a study posted by Neurology Today. The study was done by a neurologist. Hence, the vet’s with Gulf War Syndrome got theirs from a Vaccine.
      I am an RN. I read a lot of articles and package incerts before I agreed to the flu vaccine last year. And yes in the European Countries, as I understand it, still use Sqealine in there vaccines. You can make anything sound good until 10 years later down the road before you find out it wasn’t all cracked up like you thougth.

      • Chris says:

        There is no evidence there was squalene in vaccines given to military personnel:
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16762524

        Since squalene is made by your liver as a precursor to cholesterol, any amount in a vaccine would be negligible. It has been used as an adjuvant in Europe for ten years, has this syndrome become endemic there?

  10. greg praus says:

    vaccines like so much else on this Earth, including this blog are good and bad, how would you feel if your healthy child gets vaccinated and then develops problems immediately after , well its just a cooincidence …….and imagine Ticktock, looking for answers that are “science based” keep looking
    This is a huge leap of logic by anyone’s standards. Not everyone gets cancer from smoking, but cigarettes do cause cancer.

    • mjr256 says:

      How would you feel if your healthy child gets injured in a car accident? Would you oppose cars? Or would you be rational enough to realize that singling out something that’s very beneficial to society but occasionally can cause harm is silly and that there are far more dangerous dragons worth fighting?

  11. Rachel says:

    Great post. I completely agree with Roxanne. I am uncomfortable with the huge number and aggressive schedule of vaccinations given to kids these days. My son’s pediatrician was very receptive to my concerns and we agreed to spread out vaccinations over several months instead of all in one visit. It required a lot more trips to the doctor (I chose to go through the county’s public health system, which is cheaper for everybody), but knowing that my kid’s immune system wasn’t being inundated all at once was worth the inconvenience.

  12. republicofhealth says:

    Vaccines contain nothing but dangerous substances. Vaccines are filled with chemicals (in doses that are harmful) like formaldehyde, mercury, and genetically modified human and animal tissue. These toxic chemicals cause autoimmune responses which lead to ailments like diabetes, autism, and seizures.

    @Matt:
    Just because you are too ignorant to find out what is in vaccines does not give you the right to force these toxic chemicals on other people’s children.

    People, don’t let these people tell you what to do with your body and your children’s body. Take some responsibility and do some research.

    @NothingButtheTruth
    Fluoride is a toxic chemical. It causes cancer. It was first put into the water supplies in Russian gulags and then Nazi concentration camps.

    For more information check out my blog at http://RepublicofHealth.wordpress.com

    • Citizen Deux says:

      Alex Jones, is that you?

      Maybe it’s just a garden variety tin foil hatter.

    • mjr256 says:

      There’s more formaldehyde growing in your body right now than is in the vaccine, so if that’s really a problem, you’re doomed even without any vaccine. Sorry dude. Asinine comments from idiots warrant snarky responses.

    • Karen says:

      Maybe you need to read all the documents then make your decision not just the articles that are all “pro” your side. But don’t take my word for criticism of the powers that be. Who knows maybe I am wrong…but maybe those of us “nut jobs” out there who aren’t just sheep being lead down the beaten path…hmm, but do you really trust them completely with your health?

  13. Simon says:

    I don’t believe salt is fluoridated in Britain. Fluoridated salt is available in some EU countries, but I’ve never heard of it in the UK. As a UK citizen I have an interest in Iodization of salt, so I would of expected to know if other minerals were routinely added. Most UK table salt is sodium chloride with anticaking agents, most UK table salt is not iodized. My salt of choice is Lo-Salt, part Potassium Chloride, not Iodized in the UK (it is in America).

    Nearly all toothpastes, and nearly all mouth washes in the UK are loaded with fluoride, in the UK. My child’s toothpaste is 1 part per thousand sodium fluoride. So anyone exercising any regular dental hygiene practices will get ample fluoride without water fluoridation.

    Unlike vaccines I think there may be a case for avoiding water fluoridation. The benefits are limited, one can avoid dental caries in other ways, there are common adverse effects (20%+ of US kids have dental fluorosis), some very small minority groups have to maintain low fluoride intake for medical reasons. Additionally any additional processing of our water has the scope to go wrong and result in much higher concentrations of fluoride being experienced on occasion.

    As such it worries me that water fluoridation has become almost a litmus test for some pro-science groups, when as a medical issue dental caries whilst important is generally easily treated.

    In the UK we don’t even meet the WHO guidelines for giving our old folk seasonal influenza vaccines. As such water fluoridation probably wouldn’t feature high on a rationally based agenda of public health. Indeed the people most affected by dental health are the socially deprived, so dental caries does respond to general improvements in living standards. Unlike (as the CDC points out so well) many of the diseases we vaccinate against.

  14. Simon says:

    As a skeptic and a parent I don’t get the worries of others over vaccines.

    Roxanne’s comment is basically an “argument from ignorance” approach. We may not know that long term some vaccine combinations are safe, but we know that individually those vaccines are safe, and that short term they seem to work as well when delivered together.

    Similarly whilst allergies are increasing, we don’t know why. If it were vaccines we would expect a step change when the problem vaccine(s) are introduced, not a gradual creep with time – more likely something like pesticides in carpets where exposure increases with time and new carpets sold. Unless there is some reason to link the allergies to vaccines, then it is irrational to throw away the benefits of vaccination. We must by similar logic give up all modern inventions (allergies have gone up since we started using mobile phones, TVs, etc etc).

    Little mentioned is made of the medical study that showed significant inverse relationship between neurological disorders and thimerosal exposure. The presumed reason for this, is the more vaccines children had the less chance they would get brain injuries from the disorders against which they were vaccinated. Studies showing that vaccines are good for you aren’t news alas.

  15. vinoman says:

    Hi , new reader to an old comment, but I just wanted to add a few comments. I am leaning on the side of less or no vaccines now. I agree there is much corruption and misinformation on all sides. Almost always for profit. So, let’s not forget how much money the pharmaceutical companies make. Do you really believe the CDC, WHO, and FDA have our best interests in mind and have great science? I know not all government is bad, but it is mostly corrupt with lobbyists and bad science. I am a PhD scientist and I know about junk science like in Climategate so I don’t blindly trust studies the CDC quotes. We have to question everyone and everything we are told. Do you really believe that your pediatrician is current on all the literature???? No, they barely have time to read one or two journal articles a month probably, and they are relying on the science they were taught by the heavily drug-influenced medical schools.

    Just look at the flu issue for proof. If the CDC had our true good health in their minds, they would at least tell us about the benefits of Vitamin C and Vitamin D at the same time as they recommend a vaccination for the flu to give us choices. Instead they (FDA)want to make health claims about Vitamin D criminal! All is not well at the upper levels, and it would be wrong to assume so. It is well known that Vitamin D levels are critical to many illnesses.

    Just some thoughts. While looking for science based proof, make sure it is good science. Also, look for proof that vaccines actually work and are needed. I have read that article about increased health conditions eliminating most diseases and it makes sense to me, what’s wrong with it. Also, an intramuscular injection is not the same as something that is swallowed, so any toxins in there will react differently. So, I would argue that mercury received intramuscularly is not equivalent to eating fish with mercury in it. Not the same waste channels available there. In the muscle, direct to the blood and brain, versus through the intestines and bladder. Not equivalent.

    I would also argue other environmental factors (cell phones, EMF, processed foods) could be driving autism also, but you can’t deny that when a child stops talking 0-3 days after receiving a shot, that the vaccine at least triggered something. Still not good. Why would a parent lie about this type of information. Of course they would not, so we must look at the experimental data from parents and listen to the facts as well. Many CDC studies do not even look at this.

  16. Simon says:

    > Do you really believe that your pediatrician is current on all the literature?

    Given he is conducting a Swine Flu vaccination trial – yes I expect he is as current as can be expected.

    > I have read that article about increased health conditions eliminating most diseases and it makes sense to me, what’s wrong with it.

    Nothing wrong with it, but it is incomplete.

    The diseases we vaccinate for (in the developed world) are generally those that persist despite good living conditions. Otherwise there would be little motivation to vaccination. Swine flu is a good example, take a healthy well nourish 21 year old male, let someone with swine flu sneeze in his face, and see how well vitamins work. It is precisely the diseases with little natural resistance that become pandemic, be that resistance individuals have naturally, or resistance developed through exposure to similar infections of vaccines.

    > So, I would argue that mercury received intramuscularly is not equivalent to eating fish with mercury in it

    We aren’t arguing it is equivalent, we are pointing out that people consume far more mercury by mouth. So even if it isn’t equivalent weight for weight total exposure through fish is likely greater than vaccine exposure.

    > I would also argue other environmental factors (cell phones, EMF, processed foods) could be driving autism also

    Yes, but do you have any evidence for this. You can argue a lot of things.

    > but you can’t deny that when a child stops talking 0-3 days after receiving a shot, that the vaccine at least triggered something

    Of course you can. If autism is often diagnosed about the same time, as vaccination then you have to control for natural progression.

    A classic case is flu vaccine and pregnant women in first trimester. Miscarriage is so common in the first trimester that if you vaccinated all the pregnant women in the US in their first trimester you would expect ~0.3% to miscarry within 24 hours of vaccination (or about 1200 spontaneous miscarriages) if the vaccine had no effect on miscarriage rates. There is a difference between anecdote and science. Phd’s should know this stuff, what science was it?

  17. vinoman says:

    Good points Simon, I have to say for the last year or so I have been reading and believing the anti-vaccine movement. After reading this site and some others I am starting to see all is not well on that side of the argument. So, I am now trying to re-evaluate things and see why that movement is wrong. My main motivation is my 9 month old, 2 year old and 5 year old kids. I am debating delaying or stopping vaccines on the youngest one. The others are too late, mostly. I just want to do what is best and not to harm them.

    I am coming around slowly. My degree is physics, so I am biologically challenged sometimes. When I stop and think about it, I agree most of the anti-vaccine movement is more emotional than scientific sometimes. But it IS very easy to believe the government is corrupt and that the big money of pharmaceuticals is changing the science that is done. I know government/industry grant money changes research in physics, why shouldn’t it in medicine. Let’s not forget how we were told for years that smoking was good for you.

    What you said about the miscarriages in women makes sense, you must expect a certain baseline of those, regardless of vaccine or not. Good points.

    I guess one sticking point I still have is on the mercury and aluminum in some, but not all vaccines. As far as I have seen, not much has been mentioned about aluminum in research. But the link with Alzheimers and aluminum cookware was a strong argument several years ago. I would argue that intramuscular vaccinations introduces the vaccine ingredients into the bloodstream (bypassing the gut barrier protection), possibly making them much more potent. So, my fear is , no one has studied the body’s ability to purge itself of aluminum and mercury when directly injected. I know studies show that when you eat it, all should be ok for purging the metals. I have a hard time believing we can equate those two mechanisms without further studies. Needle injection is definitely not a normal means of assimilating any substance into the body in nature.

    One more point I worry about. About pediatricians/general practitioners being well-read, I would argue the majority of them are too busy to really be up-to-date, except for propaganda (good or bad) handed to them about the latest drug or vaccine by drug reps. My wife is a nurse, so I have a bit of insight into that side of the medical world. I hope that the doctors are well read, but I know better than to assume that. If the information they get from the drug rep is good then all is well, if not we get damage in patients like with Vioxx. We should not blindly trust the pharmaceuticals, therefore we can’t not blindly trust the doctors.

    Thanks for taking time to listen to my concerns and help me figure things out.

  18. Simon says:

    The Aluminum/Alzheimer thing was just a scare, it was never substantiated. I remembered it like you as a big thing, but the science never backed it up. Afraid the media never do an “oops we were wrong here is the truth” thing with these stories, so I was only told recently by a colleague that it never amounted to anything.

    http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?categoryID=200137&documentID=99&pageNumber=1

    Steve Novella discussed research on mercury clearance here.

    http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=185

    Aluminum clearance is well studied, although a lot of the research is on people on dialysis for reasons of the treatments given to such people, but there is ample basic research to show that serum levels after vaccination aren’t significant.

    Again because it forms such a large part of the earth’s crust (8%), Aluminum is ubiquitous in the environment, and we absorb much more from the environment than we are every likely to get from vaccines. Then of course we wrap, tin (a misnomer – no one uses tin – too brittle and expensive), and cook food with aluminum.

    There is some research in France concerning lesions at the site of vaccinations containing Aluminum, but serious men in serious white coats from the WHO looked at it, and considered there is no need to change vaccination practices on the basis of what has been found so far.

    I wouldn’t suggest blindly trusting doctors. Except in emergencies, I will always check medical procedures, and treatments offers both with patients who have had them before, and with the published science.

    It is not uncommon to find medical practices that aren’t strongly supported by the evidence, or have strong cultural influences etc. For example intramuscular vaccination via the deltoid is not the best route according to the evidence base on intramuscular injections, but we are culturally resistant to dropping our trousers for revealing the muscle which statistics tell us has the least chance of complications.

  19. Tiffany says:

    I would have to concur with the thoughts of your very first commenter. I do not vaccinate my kids and it has zilch to do with autism. My oldest went into a seizure and then respiratory arrest after after one of these “harmless” vaccinations. He was on life support for 3 days. He ended up with epilepsy due to scarring on his brain and his pediatric neurologists confirmed that vaccination was the cause but they refused to put it in writing for “legal” reasons. All they would put in writing was a recommendation to halt all further vaccinations for this child. After their refusal my eyes were opened to the fact that this is very much a conspiracy. Those people you trust in for your science based conclusions are lying to you so their institutions won’t lose pharma funding. The CDC and the APA are in bed with the companies that make vaccines. You might as well go direct to the vaccine manufacturer and take their opinion as gospel. It is a truly naive person who believes that the vaccines are safe. All I have to do is look at my son for “scientific proof” that vaccines cause harm.

    • Ticktock says:

      If that is your logic then all I have to do is look at my daughters for “scientific proof” that vaccines don’t cause harm. There are risks to vaccinating – nobody has said that they are perfection incarnate. The CDC and the AAP, those evil conspirators, would tell you the exact same thing. If your pediatrician or neurologist told you that vaccines caused damage but convinced you not to make legal trouble, I would encourage you to pursue the matter in vaccine court, where families are compensated by proving vaccines caused an injury… within a 51% reasonable doubt.

      If you have been told not to vaccinate your child in the future, I’m sure there’s a good reason. Perhaps he has an over-reactive immune system or he’s allergic to eggs. You didn’t list the details. But, your argument is a “nirvana fallacy”, that everything must be perfect and completely safe, even life-saving medicines. Do you drive in a car? So do people who have family members who died in a car. What if they insisted that everyone stopped driving cars because there were traffic accidents? Look, it’s fine for you to avoid cars because you had a bad experience with one, but don’t attack scientists who are trying to make cars safer. Scientists made better airbags, safer auto bodies, efficient brakes – should they be blamed as conspirators when there are accidents?

      I will grant your anecdote about your son, but you don’t have ANY proof that the CDC and AAP are being bought and controlled by pharmaceutical companies. Come back with evidence, and I’ll listen to your arguments.

      • vinoman says:

        Further comment on Tiffany’s and Ticktock’s comments. Many studies done by professional medical scientists are funded by the pharmaceutical companies. Many board members that make decisions for the CDC and AAP are also on pharmaceutical payrolls or came from that industry. So, it seems pretty clear there are many opportunities for corruption. I realize it’s not all corrupt, and many have pure intentions, but in science there is no room for corrupt behavior. I am a PhD scientist (not medical) and have worked on many grant research projects and I know first hand that corruption DOES happen and sometimes science is bent in reality. Just download the actual climategate emails and read for yourself what can happen in TRUE science.
        Vaccines may not be 100% the cause of Tiffany’s child’s problem, but it was at least VERY likely the trigger. Isn’t that equally bad? I think so.
        Take a step back and prove to US that vaccines are safe and effective? Effective is the key word. Looking at the history of the vaccines it is very unclear if they really eradicated all that is claimed or did the disease just go away on its own. (ie Polio going away in countries that did not vaccinate at about the same time). What IS clear is the profits made by convincing the public that it eradicated the disease. One can argue many ways, effective or not, but given that the effectiveness IS in question (ie especially with the flu vaccines 30-40% effective, published), then the medical community should be more open to parents refusing to vaccinate their children. And the doctors I have seen are VERY offended when you refuse. Is this China here? Where is the right of the people. Remember the constitution and scientists and doctors need to remember to question everything and stop trusting the textbooks(also heavily influenced by drug companies) and published journals.

      • Ticktock says:

        You need ME to prove that vaccines are safe and effective? You’re the one making the contradictory claim, so the burden of evidence falls upon you. But, since you asked, take a look at the graph here and tell me that the declining rate of measles was a coincidence…

        http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm

        Measles Graph

        As for the trigger, if someone’s immune system is so compromised that the comparatively minute antigens in a vaccine triggers severe reaction, then it should follow that the same tragedy could happen when encountering any number of pathogens in the natural world. What can you do? Discontinue every vaccine? Should we also discontinue baseballs when a child’s death is triggered by a line-drive to his temple? I would say vaccines are WAY more important than our favorite sport, but people who haven’t experienced measles or polio in their lifetime are spoiled by it’s benefits.

  20. vinoman says:

    Scientifically I am still wrestling with this issue. I agree that graph of cases on the CDC website is impressive, however when you look at the graphs for the other diseases on the following pages, there are a lot of alternative views. And these views listed below are from peer-reviewed journals. I agree scientifically I am not sure on extrapolating the death rate line for the measles as being valid, however the other evidence from Australia does not show it so clearly.

    It does appear that smallpox vaccines near the turn of the century 1900, were not safe. I realize technology has come along since then, but that is a reminder to me to alway question why and look for proof. Problem is I am finding conflicting viewpoints and it is not a clear cut case in most of the diseases.

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/#Meas_Mort_UK_USA

    Then there is still the issue of aluminum in vaccines. I realize that mercury has been removed from most of them (not all of the flu shots though), but aluminum is still considered a potent neurotoxin by neurologists, especially delivered intramuscularly, rather than ingested. Almost no one is discussing the issue of aluminum. But what gets me is the way our beloved CDC recommends the flu shots to pregnant women and children with no mention of danger from multi-vial shots. Any neurologist you ask would say there is no such thing as a safe level of mercury. Just as there is no safe level of x-ray. So, full body x-rays in airports is not safe. But that’s another issue there.

    Thanks for listening.

    • philosodad says:

      Vinoman, it simply is not true that any neurologist you ask would say that there is no such thing as a safe level of mercury. And there is little, if any, concern among neurologists about the trace levels of aluminum in vaccines, because there is little, if any, evidence that this is even potentially harmful.

      Small Pox is dead because of vaccination. Dead. We killed it completely off. This was a major health scourge that killed 300-500 million people in the 20th century. It is absolutely clearcut that small pox vaccination saved lives and that the small pox vaccination campaign was a major success.

      People do in fact claim that smallpoxes drop from the leading cause of death in 18th century Europe to a major scourge to completely gone was merely coincident with the invention and spread of the small pox vaccine. Then they make the same claim for rates of measles, chicken pox, and polio. It’s a fact that these diseases are found in populations that vaccinate at dramatically lower rates than in populations that don’t, but some people say that’s just a coincidence.

      Oddly, it’s the same coincidence for every disease with a vaccine, and it is totally reliable. Vaccine rates go up, disease rates go down. Vaccine rates go down, disease rates go up. In the lab, in animal studies, in human populations, practically without exception: vaccine rates go up, disease rates go down.

      • Philosodad,

        The UK Committee on Toxicity begs to differ from your claim that there it a safe level of mercury. They use a PTDI [permitted tolerable daily intake] and a PTWI [permitted tolerable weekly intake]. That is not a safe level. It is just a level at which the effects are not measurable.

        The PTWI for dietary ingestion is 3.3 micrograms/kg body weight/week. [Which is nearly 5 times higher than the US Environmental Protection Agency reference dose of 0.7 micrograms].

        In other words, mercury is toxic in parts per billion.

        As for smallpox being defeated by vaccination the evidence abundantly clearly contradicts that claim:-

        http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/small-pox-big-lie/

        The experiment of over a decade in Leicester England demonstrated 1) the vaccine did not work and 2) isolation was far more effective.

      • Chris says:

        Hello, Mr. Miller and Mr. Stone. Have you ever considered fixing the misrepresentations on that webpage? It seems you guys have a <a href="http://jabsloonies.blogspot.com/2009/03/lies-misrepresentation-and-abuse.html? Perhaps, Mr. Miller, would you like to comment on the series of comments you posted on several blogs a while ago that libeled Brian Deer?

      • Chris at December 14, 2010 at 4:41 pm you seem unable to comment on the points made.

        Can’t answer, won’t answer. Thats fine.

      • Chris says:

        You didn’t make any real points as you replied to a ten month old comment (possibly doing a lovely vanity google). And you seemed to have ignored this bit: “Vaccine rates go up, disease rates go down. Vaccine rates go down, disease rates go up”. And the fact that there was no comment on mercury.

        Okay, here it is for you to comment on… in the following table what happened between 1960 and 1970 to reduce the incidence of measles by over 90%:

        From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
        Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
        1912 . . . 310.0
        1920 . . . 480.5
        1925 . . . 194.3
        1930 . . . 340.8
        1935 . . . 584.6
        1940 . . . 220.7
        1945 . . . 110.2
        1950 . . . 210.1
        1955 . . . 337.9
        1960 . . . 245.4
        1965 . . . 135.1
        1970 . . . . 23.2
        1975 . . . . 11.3
        1980 . . . . . 5.9
        1985 . . . . . 1.2
        1990 . . . . .11.2
        1991 . . . . . .3.8
        1992 . . . . . .0.9
        1993 . . . . . .0.1
        1994 . . . . . .0.4
        1995 . . . . . .0.1
        1996 . . . . . .0.2
        1997 . . . . . . 0.1

        Now about mercury… it was removed from pediatric vaccines (including influenza) almost ten years ago. Not that it mattered, since the science shows that the level in thimerosal was not a real issue. As noted in the following papers:
        Pediatrics. 2010 Sep 13.
        Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal From Vaccines and Immunoglobulins and Risk of Autism.
        Price CS, Thompson WW, Goodson B, Weintraub ES, Croen LA, Hinrichsen VL, Marcy M, Robertson A, Eriksen E, Lewis E, Bernal P, Shay D, Davis RL, Destefano F.

        Neurotox Res. 2010 Jul;18(1):59-68. Epub 2009 Sep 16.
        Are neuropathological conditions relevant to ethylmercury exposure?
        Aschner M, Ceccatelli S.

        Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
        Tozzi AE, Bisiacchi P, Tarantino V, De Mei B, D’Elia L, Chiarotti F, Salmaso S.
        Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82

        Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
        Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, et al
        Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214

        Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories
        Baker JP
        American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253

        Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
        Schechter R, Grether JK
        Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

        Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
        Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
        N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

        Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
        Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
        Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150

        Thimerosal in Vaccines: Balancing the Risk of Adverse Effects with the Risk of Vaccine-Preventable Disease
        Bigham M, Copes R
        Drug Safety, 2005, Vol. 28(2):89-101

        Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
        Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team
        Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

        Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Retrospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
        Andrews N, Miller E, Grant A, Stowe J, Osborne V, Taylor B
        Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):584-591

        Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
        Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK
        Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804

        The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines
        Clements CJ
        Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861

        Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
        Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al
        Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048

        The Toxicology of Mercury–Current Exposures and Clinical Manifestations
        Clarkson TW, Magos L, Myers GJ
        New England Journal of Medicine, October 30, 2003, Vol. 349(18):1731-7

        Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
        Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
        Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

        Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
        Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
        Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

        Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
        Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D
        American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6

        Mercury Concentrations and Metabolism in Infants Receiving Vaccines Containing Thimerosal: A Descriptive Study
        Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J
        The Lancet, November 30, 2002, Vol. 360:1737-1741

        An Assessment of Thimerosal Use in Childhood Vaccines
        Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD
        Pediatrics, May 2001, Vol. 107(5):1147-1154

        Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
        On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.
        Smith MJ, Woods CR.

      • Twaddle.

        Here is an example – you cite the Tozzi paper.

        What the US public were not told is that the tozzi study was certain to be unable to detect any effect. The US CDC internal email exchange found here:-

        Thomas Verstraeten to Robert Chen 26 June 2001

        and obtained under US Freedom of Information shows that to be able to detect any effect in children with the methods used, the dose applied by the age of 3 months had to be more than 50 millionths of a gramme of mercury and more than 100 millionths of a gramme by the age of 6 months.

        Table 1 of the paper shows Italian children received by the age of 3 months two thirds of that minimum amount; no more 37.5 millionths of a gramme. By 4 months they had only three quarters of that minimum: 75 millionths of a gramme and the maximum by six months was 100 millionths of a gramme, not enough to hit or exceed the threshold needed.

        Heh, heh. Bit of a dud that paper like the rest of them.

        Notably, the study only included healthy children in the original vaccine trial so those most at risk were excluded. The authors also missed out large numbers of other children most likely to be at risk. And as an example of how unrepresentative of the Italian child population this study was, 70% of the Italian parents had College Degrees.
        Children excluded from the study included:

        an unknown number of underweight children who are likely to be more susceptible to injury

        the body burden of mercury would be proportionately higher

        underweight children are likely to include premature infants – [whose effective age is less and who are underdeveloped by the time they are vaccinated compared to full-term infants]

        all unwell children at time of vaccination (susceptible group)

        over 30% of children dropped out of the study and the authors acknowledged these may have included those injured, the parents not participating “because their children had cognitive developmental problems

        there was no proper control group to make a comparison

        the authors compared children who had mercury containing vaccines not against children who had no vaccines or no mercury but against children who had different vaccines with less mercury

        Only one case of autism was identified from medical records out 1,704 (an order of magnitude lower than the UK and the US) which also casts doubts on the value of the study.

      • Chris says:

        Really, who cares what you think? John Stone is a running joke, and Clifford Miller is a lawyer so incompetent that he posted several libelous comments on blogs.

        Now answer the question: what happened between 1960 and 1970 to reduce the incidence of measles by over 90%. Answer honestly or be ignored.

      • Ho ho. Just trashed your big point and you say “who cares”.

        So what happened between 1960 and 1970 to reduce the incidence of measles by 90%?

        Did it? Not in England and Wales. Mortality rates fell at the same rate during that period as before as shown in this graph so incidence could not have diminished by 90% could it? And the vaccine was introduced in 1968. And between then and 1980 the mortality rate also diminished at the same rate as before the vaccine was introduced:

        Measles Mortality England & Wales 1901 to 1999

        If you suggest real incidence of measles diminished in the USA during that period there is no reliable evidence that happened.

        There is evidence the medical professions reduced their reports of measles cases but that could easily have been because they thought the cases could not have been measles and the rates of measles remained the same.

        In the UK, the medical profession overdiagnoses measles by 73 out of 74 cases when they think there is a measles epidemic. Conversely they will of course do the same thing in reverse when they believe the symptoms they see cannot be of measles.

        Laboratory confirmed cases of measles, mumps, and rubella, England and Wales: October to December 2004

        Notified: 474, Tested: 589†, Confirmed cases: 8

        RATE OF OVERDIAGNOSIS:- 589/8 = proportionately 7400% or 74 times overdiagnosed

        SOURCE: CDR Weekly, Volume 15 Number 12 Published: 24 March 2005

        [Note from Source: "†Some oral fluid specimens were submitted early from suspected cases and may not have been subsequently notified, thus the proportion tested is artificially high for this quarter."]

        Is that your best shot? Can’t answer so says “who cares” and then attacks people who are not here to defend themselves. Keep it up. It doesn’t look good sonny.

      • Chris says:

        You see, this is why you should be ignored. I asked specifically what caused a decrease of incidence between 1960 and 1970 of measles as noted in the census data.

        This removes the effect of the medical advances to reduce mortality. It also keeps in mind that hospital costs are very expensive, and measles not only causes death but for about one in a thousand who survive various disabilities like blindness, mental retardation, deafness, etc.

        It is quite telling that you are refusing to answer the question on what caused measles incidence to go down by over 90%. It shows that you are actively being dishonest.

      • What nonsense.

        Your point is answered fully and well so you degenerate into personal abuse.

        “Science based parenting”. Hah.

      • Chris says:

        Mr. Stone and Mr. Miller, your plot was actually quite misleading due to being about mortality, the long time span and the use of the logarithmic scale.

        I asked about incidence not mortality. How does showing me a graph of mortality answer the question about incidence? This is what page explains. That it is an intentional misrepresentation of the data that you both use, and why you should be ignored.

      • Chris,

        1) the reason you can be ignored is because you degenerate into abuse the moment you lose the argument; [citation needed]

        2) it has been clearly demonstrated with referenced information that incidence figures are unreliable; [citation needed]

        3) furthermore, notwithstanding meeting your argument: morbidity and mortality for any disease and not incidence are relevant – especially where people catch a disease but are asymptomatic – and for measles peer reviewed research has shown the up to 60% of cases in India can be sub-clinical – no symptoms – so no adverse outcomes, no serious or non serious sequelae; [citation needed]

        4) mortality is the most serious form of morbidity

        5) you want to argue that whilst the most serious adverse outcome of measles – namely death – diminished into practically nothing over 200 years all other adverse effects remained at the same level and also that the numbers of subclinical cases did not increase over time. Completely invalid argument.

        6) measles was considered not to be a serious disease for the majority before vaccines – and that is recorded in the main medical textbooks of the time. [citation needed]

        You really do have a problem over attacking people who are not around to defend themselves too.

        Next you will be insisting vaccines play no part in causing asthma and allergy – which cause vastly more deaths today than measles did before vaccines. [citation needed]

        It is hypocritical to shroud-wave over measles and ignore the harms caused by the illogical unscientific religion of vaccination.

        Amen. [citation needed]

      • Chris says:

        Some information about the “childhealthsafety” website:

        Anti-Vaccine Fail

        Clifford G. Miller:

        If you demonstrate that the evidence that Miller relies upon is inaccurate or misleading, do not expect him to acknowledge that you have done so. Instead, expect him to utterly ignore the shoddiness of the evidence he relies upon.


        Awkward questions are consistently ignored by the likes of Clifford G Miller and John D Stone. Miller and Stone will never retract anything, never admit they’re wrong about anything, never apologise for anything.

      • Ha ha ha.

        Looks like Chris has comprehensively lost the argument. Love your peer reviewed references.

        Toys all out of the pram.

        Never mind Chris.

      • Chris says:

        Why is there a more than 90% decrease in the incidence of measles in the USA between 1960 and 1970 as noted by the census data posted above?

      • Already dealt with. You have not addressed points already made:-

        1) substantial over diagnosis of measles cases by medical professionals making incidence figures wholly unreliable [citation needed]

        2) only morbidity and mortality being relevant in public health and not incidence in any event [citation needed]

        3) subclinical cases

        4) your shroud-waving – measles was considered not to be a serious disease for the majority before vaccines [citation needed]

        5) the religious belief in the sanctity of vaccines resulting in serious adverse reactions being substantially unreported so perverting the perception of risk vs benefit and there being inadequate risk-risk data – once again thanks to the unscientific religious belief in the sanctity of vaccines [citation needed]

        And then over and above all that there is the abuse meted out to those concerned for the health and safety of children by people like you who won’t take responsibility for the tosh they put out on the web by putting their own names to it. But not a problem for people like you to abuse others who are not around to defend themselves. [citation needed]

        “Science based parenting” – soooo funny.

      • Chris says:

        No, you did not answer that very simple question. You just claimed that is was not important, though you are going on about “morbidity”, which is defined as how many cases there are. Also you falsely claim measles is not severe when, in fact, one out of a thousand have a severe outcome from permanent disability to death.

        Why did the incidence of measles in the USA decrease by over 90% between 1960 and 1970?

      • Wrong.

        You want to claim it was because of vaccination but base your claim on reported cases – incidence. But the incidence figures are not reliable as has been shown. They can be wildly unreliable as the example of 73 in every 74 reports not being measles. [citation needed]

        Your figures for serious adverse effects are decades out of date. You choose to ignore completely that measles was considered not to be a serious disease for the majority before vaccines – and that is recorded in the main medical textbooks of the time. [citation needed]

        The adverse effects of a disease are also dependent on the overall state of health, nutrition and living standards of the populations concerned. [citation needed]

        What is worse for all of us is that vaccines are the very reason we do not have a “measles” pill or any proper developed treatments or other forms of prevention. [citation needed]

        It is far better for the overall population if only those affected are treated – avoiding any problem with adverse vaccine reactions. [citation needed]

        And this is miles away from the original issue which was that there is no safe level of mercury. [citation needed]

        Having lost that argument you moved to completely different topics, lost again and then degenerated into attempts at bullying and abuse. [citation needed]

        Nice.

      • Chris says:

        What is worse for all of us is that vaccines are the very reason we do not have a “measles” pill or any proper developed treatments or other forms of prevention.

        The form of prevention is the very safe vaccine. Just as antibiotics have led to resistant bacteria, anti-viral medications have led to resistant viruses. Not a good solution. Since measles is so infectious, treating everyone who had it would be very expensive, since it is estimated that before the vaccine a child had a 90% chance of getting by the time they were 15 years old (and the toll on parents whose children are permanently disabled or die would be incalculable). An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

        By the way, an inhalant form of measles vaccine is under development. Though it is mostly for developing countries.

        If you have any real evidence that the MMR using the Jeryl Lynn strain of the mumps component that has been in use in the USA since 1971 (and the UK since 1992) has risks greater than measles (1 in 1000 chance of death/disability), mumps (1 in 10000 chance of death/disability… and a recent office survey in Japan showed about 1 in 1000 kids with mumps losing their hearing in one ear) or rubella (1 in 3 chance of disabled or dead baby if a pregnant woman gets it), then present it. And remember the evidence must be something I can find in my local medical school library. This means no retracted Wakefield articles nor any links to websites like childhealthsafety or ageofautism.

      • Not dealing with the answers to your own points again.

        Changing the subject again [having lost the arguments [yet again]].

        A constant game of whack-a-mole.

        Debate with yourself. This is tedious and far removed from the original issue of there being no safe level of mercury.

        And you edit the posts made to add “[citation needed]” when the citations were given. For example your very first addition of “[citation needed]” was to information for which a full quote and citation was previously provided.

        Sorry but cheap tricks like that, bullying and abuse are unacceptable.

      • Chris says:

        I did not edit your comment, since I do not have those privileges. It was done by the original author of this article. But I agree that you do need to give your cites, and your website does not qualify.

        So exactly how did the morbidity (also known as incidence) of measles decrease by over 90% in the USA between 1960 to 1970?

      • You have not shown incidence of measles decreased by over 90% in the USA between 1960 to 1970.

        All you have done is produced figures for reported cases. In response – with citation it was demonstrated that measles can be over reported by 73 out of 74 cases.

        So where is your evidence on “science based parenting” that the decrease was not medical professionals assuming what they were seeing was not measles just because a vaccine was being used.

        Ergo “[citation needed]“.

        That is also not the original issue which was there is no safe level of mercury.

        And ChildHealthSafety contains cited sources so tough luck on that also.

      • You still have not provided any evidence that true incidence of measles decreased by over 90% in the USA between 1960 to 1970.

        Where is your evidence the decrease was not medical professionals not reporting because they assumed what they were seeing could not be measles because a vaccine was being used.

        They were told by the US CDC in 1967 that:-

        Effective use of these vaccines during the coming winter and spring should insure the eradication of measles from the United States in 1967.

        Public Health Reports Vol. 82, No. 3, March 1967

        And it was shown with citation that medical professionals can overdiagnose measles cases by 73 in every 74 cases – December 15, 2010 at 7:28 am.

      • Chris says:

        Yes, I did. Right here. Your citation is does not include the USA, and was post vaccine introduction. Do do realize they are two different countries? Plus there was under reporting before the 1970s, not over reporting like you indicated for 2004! Also measles is a reportable disease, in the very large bureaucratic USA.

        So the counting after 1950 in the USA is more accurate, and definitely not off by any large degree, especially when the numbers of measles cases were on the order of almost half a million in 1960 to almost fifty thousand in 1970. The cite you gave is on less than five hundred reported cases. You are comparing apples to oranges.

        Even with the reporting error the numbers would be: (245.4/74) times (179,323,175/100000) for 1960 is still over nine times more than (23.2/74) times (203,211,926/100000) for 1970 (and the normalized rate for 1960 is more than then times that of 1970). Population figures from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States.

        You are quite a few gyrations to avoid answering a simple question.

      • Answer the question.

        Where is your evidence the decrease was not medical professionals over reporting before the vaccine and then stopping over reporting when the vaccine was introduced.

        You have no evidence there was any real decrease because you have no evidence the “reported” cases were real ones and not over-reporting.

      • Chris says:

        I have given you the evidence multiple times, and have explained that measles was under reported in the era prior to the vaccine. I have told you that the ratio is still the same even with misreporting factored in. I have given you numbers that ranged from almost 500000 in 1960 to down to almost 50000 in 1970, and yet you do not understand.

        I now see why you used the very inappropriate logarithmic graph for your plot. You used it because you do not understand what it is (it may also explain why there is a large following for homeopaths at JABS). It is not my fault you do not understand the information that has been given to you on a silver platter. I have absolutely no obligation to deal with your reading or math comprehension difficulties. I suggest you find remedial instruction in both literacy and basic mathematics.

      • “I have given you the evidence multiple times”

        No you have not.

        ” …. measles was under reported in the era prior to the vaccine.” [citation required]

        “the ratio is still the same even with misreporting factored in” [citation required]

        .

        “numbers that ranged from almost 500000 in 1960 to down to almost 50000 in 1970″ [citation required]

        .

        “I now see why you used the very inappropriate logarithmic graph for your plot.”

        .

        Ha ha ha. Why don’t you email the author of the graph?

        But before you do, you should check your facts. This kind of plot is used in peer reviewed formal papers. Here is an example:-

        Englehandt SF, Halsey NA, Eddins DL, Hinman AR. Measles mortality in the United States 1971-1975. Am J Public Health 1980;70:1166–1169.

        So who does not understand? Your plainly erroneous assertions show a comprehensive lack of understanding.

      • Chris says:

        1) That graph is not of England and Wales, and does not have a line going to 2000.

        2) 1971 to 1975 is not 1960 to 1970.

        3) The morbidity/incidence/cases line is almost straight, showing exactly what I did… it is a better gauge of showing the effect of vaccine when that line plunges.

        4) That paper shows that the death rate of reported cases was 1 in 1000. How is that mild?

        5) Also, they are careful to use reported cases, because there were several times more actual cases than reported.

        6) The average percentage of reporting errors does not affect the ratio. There were still ten times as many measles cases reported in 1960 than in 1970. Why is that?

        7) You really need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

      • Chris says:

        The following is a test of your reading comprehension and willingness to learn new material. Read this 1975 review: The benefits from 10 years of measles immunization in the United States, and answer the following questions:

        1) The first paragraph of the second page (page 206) lists several numbers about measles before 1963, please tell what was:

        a) The estimated number of measles.

        b) How many cases of measles encephalitis.

        c) How many deaths due to measles.

        2) The second to the last paragraph of that page gives the number of measles for 1968, how many cases were there?

        3) On the last page there is a table after the second paragraph. Please tell us the numbers for:

        a) Cases averted

        b) Lives saved

        c) Cases of retardation averted

        d) Hospital days saved

      • Wrong again re your comment here December 17, 2010 at 9:10 pm.

        You complained a measles graph was a logarithmic plot.

        You were then shown a formal peer reviewed journal containing a logarithmic measles graph.

        Full answer to you but you cannot admit you were wrong so come out with a whole lot of inrelevant comments like:

        “That graph is not of England and Wales”

        Good grief!

      • Re your comment here: December 18, 2010 at 12:03 am

        You still have not answered the question.

        Where is your evidence the seeming decrease in measles incidence was not medical professionals over reporting before the vaccine and then stopping over reporting when the vaccine was introduced.

        Citing a 1975 US CDC Report [not peer reviewed] which uses the same figures and also assumes a case reported is a real case and not over reporting does not address the point.

        “[citation needed]“.

        So basically you don’t have the evidence.

        As for your suggestions about things like “cases averted”, “lives saved”, “Cases of retardation averted”, “hospital days saved”, these are assumptions.

        If the cases are substantially over reported then how can anyone claim any particular number is real cases averted?

        If there is no comparison with overall mortality, you cannot tell if any lives have been saved – a death reported as from pneumonia is still a death even if it might have previously been erroneously reported as a measles death – pneumonia consequent on contracting measles.

        The same applies to retardation – where is there a comparison to real cases to show there had been any reduction? Ditto hospital days saved.

        This is just not science.

      • Ticktock says:

        This isn’t a competition. You’ve made some extraordinary claims that are pointless for us to keep answering if you lack the integrity or intelligence to admit when you’re wrong. Unless you are a reputable epidemiologist, or can reference several that agree with you, you are going to seem like a hopeless crank to anyone who stumbles across this comment war. The difference between your POV and ours is that we respect science and logic. You have a preconceived notion of the answer that you expect and then you go to great strain to fit the data to match your biased POV. That’s called “apologetics”. This is not “apologetics-based parenting”; we actually respect science, and we don’t manipulate the facts to suit our argument.

        Let’s be realistic. You’re not going to listen to reason or facts, so why don’t you continue spreading your propaganda on Child Health Safety? I’m sure there are people who will stumble across your excellent debate skills here and become inspired to visit your site. Or, you can keep repeating yourself ad infinitum on our little blog, and we’ll be happy to keep swatting you down with facts. But, seriously, you’re wasting your time, and embarrassing yourself. Go spend time with your spouse or family. It’s the holidays. Don’t you have anything better to do than play the fool in the comments section of an article several years old? At least we are writers here who care about what we write. What’s your excuse? Think about it.

      • David says:

        Vaccination is clearly an abomination. If we spent the billions of $ that are spent every year on vaccine production on proper nutrition, hygiene, and sleep…are children would be the healthiest in the world. American children are sicker than ever…and yes, we may not have infectious disease, but we do have a ricioulous load of immune based disorders such as asthma, allergies, type I diabetes, neurodevelopmental disorders, etc.

      • Ticktock says:

        The US government spends about 12 billion dollars on child nutrition every year. American children are not sicker than ever. Please make an effort to be serious.

    • Chris says:

      You failed. You cannot even list the numbers placed in front of you. You have not even answered the very simple question of why the reported levels of measles declined over 90% (and did not go up to previous levels) in one decade.

  21. [...] the small things like training her to  fall asleep  on her own to the big things like getting her vaccinated, it is all up to us right now.  Defining what we consider normal is pretty easily achieved, but as [...]

  22. From Autism Speaks today: Get vaccinated; the state of science supports it.

    http://blog.autismspeaks.org/2010/03/12/statement-vaccine-court/

  23. Pearl says:

    “Those who are not vaccinated have a 100% chance of contracting the diseases to which they are exposed.”

    You lose all credibility with such a patently false statement.

  24. Ticktock says:

    Thanks for calling that to my attention. I posed your challenge to vaccine expert Dr. Paul Offit, and I’ve edited the text to reflect his answer. Basically, every disease is different, but something like measles is extremely contagious. He suggested that 95% would be a more accurate statement, if I specified that the disease was measles.

    I strive to be accurate, but I’m not an expert on vaccines. I encourage people to investigate the science-based links that I’ve provided, which are far more reliable than what this parent can provide.

  25. [...] an excellent primer on vaccines, please visit Science Based Parenting. If you’ve found this article because you are concerned about the pig virus story, and that [...]

  26. stellaargent says:

    Thanks so much for this article on vaccinations. I vaccinated my daughter following the schedule provided by the Australian Government after doing the research. She is a very vigorous, healthy, and outgoing kid. I live in THE LOWEST vaccination area of Australia, and my daughter has caught rubella that should not have been present in a developed world community. (and this is a regional area where most have tertiary education)- I only discovered the level of Anti-vax mythinformation when I opened my big mouth at Playgroup morning tea. The other Mums were discussing whooping cough appearing in a nearby suburb. I said, ‘Unfortunately welll meaning people are being taken in by scaremongering and not vaccinating their kids despite evidence showing us it is better than the alternative, People have forgotten how bad it was before polio was eradicated etc…’ – Resounding silence and 30 death stares….never went again!

  27. Cookie says:

    It was apparent to me there was something wrong with my son shortly after he was born, long before he received any vaccinations. Yes, he was eventually diagnosed with autism. He had no reaction to any vaccines.
    In fact, my second child was the one who got sick after her 18 month MMR vaccine. She is now 24 years old, and is fine.
    I, on the other hand, had hard measles before there were any vaccinations. I developed encephalitis, nearly died and now have epilepsy.
    When my daughter has children I will encourage her to follow my advice, not the advice of a former Playboy bunny, looking for someone to blame, and a discredited doctor still dreaming of being world famous.

  28. You have not shown incidence of measles decreased by over 90% in the USA between 1960 to 1970.

    All you have done is produced figures for reported cases. In response – with citation it was demonstrated that measles can be over reported by 73 out of 74 cases.

    So where is your evidence on “science based parenting” that the decrease was not medical professionals assuming what they were seeing was not measles just because a vaccine was being used.

    Ergo “[citation needed]“.

    That is also not the original issue which was there is no safe level of mercury.

    And ChildHealthSafety contains cited sources so tough luck on that also.

    • Immediately preceding comment incorrectly posted and is now re-posted where it was meant to be, viz here:

      December 16, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    • Chris says:

      Yes, I did. Right here. Your citation is does not include the USA. Do do realize they are two different countries? Yes, there is under reporting, but measles is a reportable disease, in the very large bureaucratic USA. So the counting after 1950 in the USA is more accurate, and definitely not off by several thousands.

      You are quite a few gyrations to avoid answering a simple question.

    • Chris says:

      By the way 7400 times 245.4 times 100000 is still over ten times 7400 times 23.2 times 100000. So even with under reporting, there was more than a 90% drop of morbidity (incidence).

      Your website, childhealthsafety, tends to use cherry picking, and mis-interpretation (the logarithmic plot is a goofy classic). Get your findings published in a real journal, and then you will be more believable.

    • Chris says:

      Oops, math error… it should be:

      245.4/74 times 100000 is still over ten times times 23.2/74 times 100000. But in the 1950s through the 1970s it would have been underdiagnosed, not over diagnosed.

  29. Spooner says:

    Simple challenge for all – Watch Sherri Tenpenny’s video about vaccination then go get a shot.

    What you’ll find is that the data that the CDC and other licensed agencies collect when read in order and full context strongly contradict their public recommendations.

    Learn then decide for yourself.

    • Chris says:

      Due to the fact we have families and lives to lead, I see no reason to sit through an almost three hour video.

      Just make it easier for us and list the cites from PubMed that show that the MMR vaccine carries more risk than measles, mumps and rubella. Basically show the MMR causes injury one out of a thousand vaccinations (equivalent to the harm by measles).

      Remember, videos are not considered valid scientific evidence. Thank you.

    • Chris says:

      I would also ask you detail what Dr. Tenpenny’s specific expertise is in immunology, especially since is is board certified in Emergency Medicine and Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine, and seems to think homeopathy is real. Looking up more on her, it seems she is a germ denier:

      Dr. Tenpenny is a germ denier. Disease is due to toxins that damage the body and the germs subsequently take advantage of the toxin-damaged tissues. She even quotes the well-debunked lie that Pasteur recanted his germ theory on his death bed.

      Really she is not a valid source of information on vaccines and immunology. If you have shown she has actual education from a medical/osteopathic school on the relevant subjects, plus has published in the medical literature (PubMed) I might be convinced.

  30. Lisa says:

    Can we all agree on the following?? Please!! Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but if you say that a vaccine decreased the rate of a particular disease~ just going on numbers here bc we all know that vaccination does not equal immunization~ Why is it so far fetched to say that over vaccinating can potentially be there reason for lead to autism, developmental delays, allergies.etc. Why is it that proper hygiene, clean water, sanitation can not be the reason these diseases have decreased? Why are these correlations debunked and we only accept that vaccines were the decrease? Anyhow~

    “American children are over-vaccinated and over-medicated, over-fed, undernourished and have record levels of chronic illness and developmental delay. As well, there is a direct toll of injured adults, subjected to an increased burden of inadequately tested, compulsory and even experimental vaccine exposures administered over a backdrop of multiple toxic exposures from prescription and over-the-counter medications. The majority of diets consist of foods made from genetically modified organisms and laden with pesticides and preservatives, and tens of thousands of industrial compounds that did not exist a century ago. In simplest terms, the medical industrial complex has launched a massive and uncontrolled experiment on a generation of Americans.” ~Canary Party We need a change. It will not happen without a demand. Push to label GMO foods. Don’t you think you have a right to know if you are eating GMO? Over 90% of processed food in the grocery store contains GMO, as well as 80% of soy, 73% of corn grown in the US and our government doesn’t find it necessary to inform you? We need to push for organic and locally grown foods. We need to stand together and demand safer vaccines for our children. “It’s Time for an End to the Corruption that is Destroying the Health of Americans!”

    • Chris says:

      Why is it so far fetched to say that over vaccinating can potentially be there reason for lead to autism, developmental delays, allergies.etc.

      Because the data does not support those contentions. If you have actual evidence from the real scientific literature, then please present it (no links to websites, just list the journal, title, date and authors). If you read this entire thread you will find that none has been produced.

      Why is it that proper hygiene, clean water, sanitation can not be the reason these diseases have decreased?

      Those are very important considerations for water and insect born diseases. It is why there are no vaccines routinely given in the USA for typhoid, typhus and yellow fever (which used to occur in the USA, look up Walter Reed and William Gorgas). It is also why we don’t see the cholera that has been a problem in Haiti. And the sanitation efforts were part of an increase in polio early in the 20th century (see the book Polio, an American Story by Oshinsky).

      But they have nothing to do with the control of measles, mumps, rubella and several other air borne diseases. There has been an increase of measles in Europe, do you think they have had a breakdown in their water supply and sewage treatment?

      Why are these correlations debunked and we only accept that vaccines were the decrease?

      We don’t. Only those who wish to demonize one particular part of public health make that claim.

      Now you mention “The Canary Party.” Interesting choice, since the canaries that were used in mines actually died. This brings up a couple of interesting points:

      1) If children are so sensitive to vaccines, wouldn’t they do worse with the full blown diseases?

      2) The comparison of disabled children like mine to being actually dead is very disturbing. My child is very much alive, thank you very much. While he may never be able to live on his own, he is still an interesting adult who we still learn from.

      Also, he had seizures while he had a now vaccine preventable disease. Which is why I am baffled why the vaccines are considered a greater risk than the diseases.

  31. Lisa says:

    “Which is why I am baffled why the vaccines are considered a greater risk than the diseases.”

    I think the reason you are baffled is because vaccines contain toxins. Toxins given at low doses are not poisonous, but given multiple vaccines at once increases the amount of toxins “injected” into the body. I guess my question is , how much is too much? At what point does it become a poison? I believe the FDA has a standard on maximum amount of aluminum in injectable solutions for infants at 25mcg per liter. Why does their standard not also include vaccines. Are they not injectable? Why does the Hep B vaccine contain 225mcg of aluminum and no one is saying, hey that is way above FDA standards? These are logical questions in which no one seems to know the answers to. Some vaccines contain as much as 875mcg of aluminum. Crazy! I can not listen to the rhetoric of how much aluminum is in breast milk and that we should ban breast milk. It is true that injectable aluminum is processed and excreted quite differently than swallowed aluminum, correct? Why can’t I find not one LONG TERM study showing the effects of multiple vaccines given at once on the human body. I feel as though the struggle for most parents who choose not to vaccinate is because we never get straight answers. Not from pediatricians, AAP, CDC, FDA, scientists. Please help me with these answers. I am very open-minded and would like your input.

    On another note, do you agree that our children are over-vaccinated and over-medicated, over-fed, undernourished and have record levels of chronic illness and developmental delay?

    • Chris says:

      I think the reason you are baffled is because vaccines contain toxins.

      Now the reason I am baffled is that you did not post any data as requested, only this unsupported statement. Please tell us what the toxins are, and how they are more dangerous than the very real toxins created by bacterial infections like tetanus, pertussis, diphtheria and Hib. Please support your answer with actual scientific evidence by listing the journal, title, date and authors of the papers that you are using to support that statement.

      I believe the FDA has a standard on maximum amount of aluminum in injectable solutions for infants at 25mcg per liter. Why does their standard not also include vaccines.

      Because the standard refers to IV saline solutions that are given in amounts greater than any vaccine. Having had a baby and then toddler hooked to an IV, I can tell you what is in that bag is much much more than the tiny vial of a vaccine. Did you notice you said “per liter.” How many vaccines are measured in liters?

      You get vastly more aluminum in your diet per day and your kid will get much more subcutaneously when he/she scrapes his/her knee in dirt (where aluminum is the most abundant metal element) then from any vaccine.

      Why can’t I find not one LONG TERM study showing the effects of multiple vaccines given at once on the human body.

      Perhaps because you are asking the wrong question. The biggest effect vaccines have had is causing people to die of the diseases of old age, because more children get to grow up and grow old. My mother had two uncles who died before they reached the age of seven in the early part of the 20th century, it was common for families to bury children then.. Do you have a problem that one out of a thousand children no longer have to deal with permanent damage from actually getting measles (deafness to death), or that kids are no longer being maimed or killed from getting Hib, polio, and the meningitis that we now have vaccines for? Or that young people are not getting as much liver cancer because they had chronic hepatitis B, which they got as a young child?

      Again, if you have any evidence that the vaccines have greater risks then the diseases then please list the journal, title, date and authors of the papers that support your view.

      On another note, do you agree that our children are over-vaccinated and over-medicated, over-fed, undernourished and have record levels of chronic illness and developmental delay?

      No. The only one I can agree on is “over-fed.” The “over-fed” bit in counter to “undernourished.” There is no way that kids in the USA are undernourished. Even if they are eating too much, they are still getting the required vitamins, fats and proteins… just too much.

      You’d have to show that the numbers of kids with developmental delays have increased with some actual data, especially since the California data shows that has diagnoses of autism go up, the numbers for mental retardation go down:

      Recent data suggest that the increase in cases of autism matches a decrease in cases of mental retardation.

      You should be reminded that even though measles did cause about 500 deaths per year before the vaccine, it also caused lots of permanent brain damage (deafness, blindness, mental retardation, plus SSPE which causes general degeneration and then death). Congenital rubella was a major source of developmental delays during the epidemic in the early 1960s. Then there was polio, mumps and Hib that also caused a great deal of physical and brain damage, so you really need to show that the vaccines are more dangerous.

      Really, do tell me. I saw my kid go into seizures collapse and then get rushed to the hospital due to a now vaccine preventable disease. He has been disabled since. This is why I am baffled as to why there are those who fear the vaccines more than the diseases. Not to some nebulous reason like “toxin.” Especially since no one can escape aluminum unless you find another planet to live on.

      Here is an example of the type of evidence I expect in your next answer (this paper is available free online, just search for it on PubMed):
      Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
      Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
      Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.

      If you want certain studies done, then ask the sponsors of the Canary Party to pay for them. Generation Rescue and SafeMinds have both paid for studies, and if they are not satisfied with the studies that we have now, then they should pay for the ones they like. Especially since the CDC did bend over backwards to include Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds in a design for this study, but when the results did not match her beliefs she had a fit:
      Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
      Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
      N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

      By the way, I am still disgusted that they compare disabled children to dead canaries. My son has several issues from learning and language disabilities, a severe genetic heart condition and some problems with depression. But he is not dead. He is my son. I do cry for what the seizures did to him, and I do not wish it on anyone else… which is why I support vaccines. Since more children are harmed by diseases than vaccines, because that is what is shown by the real data.

      • Lisa says:

        “Because the standard refers to IV saline solutions that are given in amounts greater than any vaccine. Having had a baby and then toddler hooked to an IV, I can tell you what is in that bag is much much more than the tiny vial of a vaccine. Did you notice you said “per liter.” How many vaccines are measured in liters?” -Chris

        Are you insulting my intelligence when comparing vaccine solutions to an iv solution? I know vaccines are NOT measured in liters, but are measured in cc’s or ml. That being said, if the standards for aluminum in a liter of iv solution are set at 25mcg per day, than wouldn’t an intelligent person understand that the standard for a vaccine solution should be much lower (since vaccines are given in a MUCH SMALLER dosage than a liter of iv solution? Then why is it that vaccines contain much higher dosages of aluminum?

        A group called the ASPEN (The American Society for Parenteral and Enternal Nutritionists) published a study in 2004. In the study they looked at newborns that received IVs (which contain aluminum) for prolonged periods. They reported that aluminum can build up in the body tissue of newborns. It should also be noted that the IV packaging places a warning that states, “This product contains aluminum that may be toxic.” The packaging also warns that premature babies should be limited to 5 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day. But most of the vaccines contain way more than 5 micrograms. FDA standard for infants is 25mcg per day. Below is a list of vaccines that contain aluminum and their amounts.

        HIB- 225 micrograms
        PC- 125 micrograms
        DTaP- 170- 625 micrograms
        Hep B- 250 micrograms
        Hep A- 250 micrograms
        HPV- 225 micrograms
        Pentacel (DTaP, HIB, Polio) 330 micrograms
        Pediarix (DTaP, HIB, Polio) 850 micrograms

        As you can see this is way more than 5 micrograms of aluminum per shot. A study done in 1997 looked at the neurological development of premature babies who were given a standard IV feeding solution that contained aluminum and compare it to premature babies who were given the same IV feeding solution but with the aluminum almost filtered out. The babies who received the IV with aluminum in it showed “impaired neurological and mental development at eighteen months compared the infants who had the IV with hardly any aluminum in it. Those who got aluminum received an average of about 500 micrograms spread out over an average of 10 days, or about 50 micrograms per day. The babies who got the solution with aluminum filtered out received about 10 micrograms daily, or 4 to 5 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day. ” (p.197 ) Dr. Sears The Vaccine Book

        There have been no studies that tests the amounts of aluminum in vaccines to date. The studies with the premature babies is enough to bring on some concern. So if aluminum can be toxic, why are they keeping it in the vaccines? Aluminum helps the vaccines to work better by helping our immune systems recognize the vaccine better. There are some vaccines that do not have any aluminum in them and they work just fine. It would cost the drug companies a lot of money to reconfigure their vaccines to contain no aluminum in them. So until there is a major study that shows that aluminum in vaccines is toxic to young babies and children, I believe there will be no change. Maybe the CDC, AAP, and FDA should do this study and not leave it up to the invested interests of the Pharmaceutical Companies.

        “You get vastly more aluminum in your diet per day and your kid will get much more subcutaneously when he/she scrapes his/her knee in dirt (where aluminum is the most abundant metal element) then from any vaccine.”-Chris

        Do we need to go into the fact that “ingested vs injected” aluminum are processed by the body in completely different ways? I am sure you know this. Are you telling me that aluminum in breast milk & diet, as well as a scrape on the knee are processed in the body the same way as it is when it is injected into the muscle of an infant??????

        Generation Rescue, Inc. April 2009
        The United States has the highest number of mandated vaccines for children under 5 in the world (36,
        double the Western world average of 18), the highest autism rate in the world (1 in 100 children, 10 times
        or more the rate of some other Western countries), but only places 34th in the world for its children under
        5 mortality rate.

        “No. The only one I can agree on is “over-fed.” The “over-fed” bit in counter to “undernourished.” There is no way that kids in the USA are undernourished. Even if they are eating too much, they are still getting the required vitamins, fats and proteins… just too much.”-Chris

        I am glad we agree that our children are overfed. Overfed with a depleted diet laden with pesticides and GMO foods in which the government does not feel the need to label! Wouldn’t you like to know if you were eating genetically modified food? Food in which scientists have intentionally injected bacteria to change the DNA for it to become resistant to chemicals and grow faster, bigger, cheaper? Are you comfortable with pseudo-food?

        I disagree with our kids not being undernourished. You do understand that just because you are taking in the vitamins and supplements does not mean your body is absorbing them? Nutrient cellular uptake relies on the condition and environment of the cells. If your cells are unhealthy, then your body isn’t absorbing nutrition properly. I think it’s safe to say that the obesity rate in children is growing and therefore their cells are in an unhealthy state, as well as their organs being overly stressed and so on.

      • Chris says:

        Are you insulting my intelligence by not providing any real science to support your positions. Show me the papers written by the ASPEN group that I can find in my local medical school library.

        Generation Rescue is not a scientific organization. They are welcome to pay real scientists to do the studies you want. So please lobby them and SafeMinds (who have paid for several studies) to pay for the studies they want. They should also not complain if the results are not what they want.

        If you wish to learn about how to evaluate science I suggest you read Lies, Damned Lies and Science. That should help you understand why I

        IV solutions are not the same as vaccines, especially since they are administered directly into veins. They are not vaccines, and the vaccines are still very small amounts especially compared to the amount of aluminum you consume and breathe in daily.

  32. David says:

    Hi Lisa, I jumped into this slugfest sometime in the past, almost 1 year ago now. Anyway, I appreciated your comments and mostly agree with your points. One observation I have would be the following. I am a PhD physicist and would love to see scientific evidence for everything, however, everyone needs to realize that many scientific studies that are done are tainted by funding sources, therefore the results show what the pharma companies wanted them to show. They willfully or accidentally leave out important factors. So, to act like anything that is published is the word of god, is simply misplaced faith in the scientific process. I wish we could trust all that is printed in peer-reviewed journals, but you simply cannot! That said, peer reviewed journals do contain some of the best information that is available to us, but not a complete picture, by far.

    I agree wholeheartedly with you, many of the US kids are undernourished, underfed, etc….. The only way to avoid that, is to cook at home, period. …. I mean cook at home everyday and only eat out at restaurants a couple of times per month. Not only that, one needs to take probiotics and vitamin D (especially those living in the North, like me). Also, one needs to use organic foods as much as possible, when cooking at home. I would also say, no man-made salt, just sea salts, like Redmond’s RealSalt. Then let’s not forget the fluoride in some water supplies, toothpaste, etc….. that we need to eliminate. So, many problems, GMOs etc…..Also, swimming in chlorinated pools is bad.

    But on vaccines, as of now, I have chosen to stop vaccinating my kids. Hopefully I can stay that way, unless the state forces me to change things.

    My wife is a working RN and it’s amazing that 50% or so of the many doctors she works with in a hospital environment, when asked, don’t take the flu shots. Not that we should pattern our lives on advice from doctors, but it is interesting that they don’t believe in them. You may know the whole “Dead Doctors Don’t Lie” bit. Think about it…. How many fit, healthy 60+ year old doctors do you know. Not as many as you would think. My personal doc is overweight and does not look healthy and he’s in his 50′s. So, it’s hard to follow their advice like the gospel. The problem goes back to what they are taught in school. It’s not necessarily all their fault. Sick people coming in to the ER are pretty consistent. You can see where the problems came from mostly, like, they are dirty (they get abscesses), they are overweight and eat fast food (they are diabetic), etc….and one big theme among many of them, they don’t cook at home much and don’t really have much real knowledge about nutrition or the lack of it in lots of foods.

    Anyway, you add theses problems into the whole impurities and toxins in some vaccines and you get developmental problems.

    My two cents for the day.

    • Lisa says:

      Hi David, I am delighted you threw in your two cents for the day! I am also well educated and hold a Doctorate degree. I agree whole-heartedly that science studies are not the be all end all. Sometimes you just have to look at the big picture and understand that everything can not be proven by an experiment. In fact, i don’t not need a scientific study to tell me that our children are over-vaccinated, overmedicated, overfed, and undernourished. I can figure that out just by looking at them. Call it the observation and logic study!

      • Chris says:

        I am also well educated and hold a Doctorate degree. I agree whole-heartedly that science studies are not the be all end all.

        I see you have no references to back up your statements. Claims to having a doctorate degree and refusing to provide supporting evidence is ironic. I sincerely doubt your dissertation was accepted without a bibliography.

    • Chris says:

      One observation I have would be the following. I am a PhD physicist and would love to see scientific evidence for everything, however, everyone needs to realize that many scientific studies that are done are tainted by funding sources, therefore the results show what the pharma companies wanted them to show.

      Here are two lists of journal articles on autism and vaccines going back to 1998:
      http://www.immunize.org/journalarticles/conc_aut.asp
      and
      http://www.immunize.org/journalarticles/conc_autarchive.asp

      Now please tell me which of those articles have “Pharma Funding.” I’d be very interested in this one, which had the same exact funding and was done in the same hospital as Wakefield’s now withdrawn Lancet study:

      Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study
      Authors: Taylor B, Miller E, Lingam R, Andrews N, Simmons A, Stowe J
      Source: British Medical Journal, February 16, 2002, Vol. 324(7334):393-6

      Be sure to list the studies like I did above, and copy and paste the declaration of suspicious “Big Pharma” support. Thank you.

  33. Lisa says:

    Chris- Can you stop comparing aluminum in the environment or diet to aluminum being injected? You know it is processed differently depending on how it gets into the body. Why do you keep ignoring that fact? Also, you ignored the amounts of aluminum in each vaccine and should we recognize the fact that the FDA does not set a maximum standard of aluminum for a vaccine? Is it because they have done the studies to show safety? No. Then why would the FDA have a standard for aluminum in iv solutions but not for vaccines? Both are injected- granted one intramuscularly and one intravenously. Logical and intelligent people would like to know the answer.

    • Chris says:

      Absolutely not. Previously you said “A group called the ASPEN (The American Society for Parenteral and Enternal Nutritionists) published a study in 2004. In the study they looked at newborns that received IVs (which contain aluminum) for prolonged periods.”

      Well, I found the reference that you neglected to link to: A.S.P.E.N. Statement on Aluminum in Parenteral Nutrition
      Solutions
      . Did you notice it is part of nutritional diet solutions, which is food? And the warnings are for neonatal patients, especially those with immature kidney? Those are not vaccines. So telling me to not compare food with vaccines is ironic, since that is exactly what you are doing.

      The reason there is a standard for the intravenous solution and not vaccines because of the sheer difference in quantity. Plus the tiny size of the babies often with impaired kidneys that require the supplemental nutrition.

      I also did not ignore that things are processed differently on how it gets into the body. You were the one trying to equate an intravenous solution that is used in large quantities for long term support to a few intramuscular vaccines. You also missed my statement above about a child skinning a knee in the soil. Because soil contains so much aluminum in its makeup, that introduces aluminum under the skin, and sometimes into the muscle. The aluminum gets into our food because the plants are grown in soil where the most common minerals are aluminum containing feldspars.

      I suggest in the future that you reference your statements from the original source, and not cut and paste from the webpage you are reading it from. Yes, I saw the websites that were referencing that one document on nutritional support solutions from ASPEN. I also noticed which websites the “aluminum” levels for the vaccines were listed, which explains why they don’t match the amounts on the FDA website. Use your doctorate education to find the original sources, evaluate them and reference them directly in the future.

      • Lisa says:

        Here are the current levels of aluminum per shot of the following vaccines, as listed on each vaccine’s packaging:

        DTaP (for Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis): 170-625 mcg, depending on manufacturer
        Hepatitis A: 250 mcg
        Hepatitis B: 250 mcg
        HIB (for meningitis; PedVaxHib brand only): 225 mcg
        HPV: 225 mcg
        Pediarix (DTaP/Hepatitis B/Polio combination): 850 mcg
        Pentacel (DTaP/HIB/Polio combination): 1500 mcg
        Pneumococcus: 125 mcg

        I found these amounts on the manufacturer’s vaccine inserts for each vaccine. Also, you can ind the information about the ASPEN study on the FDA’s website: http://www.fda.gov and type in “aluminum toxicity”.

        “Did you notice it is part of nutritional diet solutions, which is food?”-Chris

        Are you still not understanding that it is not SWALLOWED food or consumed, but supplementation through an iv injection that contains aluminum????? Injected food solution, not consumed by eating or breathing or subcutaneous scratches on the knee.

        “You were the one trying to equate an intravenous solution that is used in large quantities for long term support to a few intramuscular vaccines.”

        In which these vaccines contain EXTREME amounts of aluminum in very small amounts of solution. Do the math. If the FDA has a standard on an injection of aluminum per liter of solution, isn’t it odd that they do not require a maximum standard on injection of aluminum per vaccine solution??

        “I also noticed which websites the “aluminum” levels for the vaccines were listed, which explains why they don’t match the amounts on the FDA website.”-Chris

        Chris, please post the amounts of aluminum in vaccines from the FDA website because when I search for them, I come up with the following statement:

        Why is aluminum in some vaccines?
        Aluminum salts are incorporated into some vaccine formulations as an adjuvant to enhance the immune response in the vaccinated individual. The aluminum salts in some U.S. licensed vaccines are aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, alum (potassium aluminum sulfate), or mixed aluminum salts. For example: aluminum salts are used in DTaP vaccines, the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine, and hepatitis B vaccines.

        Aluminum adjuvant containing vaccines have a demonstrated safety profile of over six decades of use and have only uncommonly been associated with severe local reactions. Of note, the most common source of exposure to aluminum is from eating food or drinking water.

        http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm

        As you can see, the FDA also sidesteps the difference of “ingested vs. injected” aluminum by making it known that
        “Of note, the most common source of exposure to aluminum is from eating food or drinking water.”
        EXACTLY-Not injection. Consumption.
        They are not informing the parent of the differences in how the body processes it. It leads to a false assumption that it is processed the same whether it is injected or consumed.

      • Chris says:

        All I can say is: so what? What is your evidence that these levels in vaccines are dangerous? And don’t post something that has to do with an IV solution, make it pertinent only to vaccines. You are making the claim, therefore you need to produce the evidence, and it must be that which is from real biological/medical research. Just post the journal, title, date and authors of the studies that support your claims.

        If you don’t like the studies that do exist, then lobby your friends at Generation Rescue and SafeMinds to pay for some. Get yourself appointed as the lead investigator and go to town. I am sure you will do much better than Gayle DeLong. Your doctorate much qualify you better than her Finance and International Business PhD.

        The bit about aluminum is just moving the goal posts. First it was thimerosal, but that was removed ten years ago. Then it was the MMR, but that turned out to be based on fraudulent evidence.

        At the present there have been several large epidemiological studies done in several countries on three continents that show no real association between autism and vaccines. Most of them funded through public health agencies. They are listed in several places, I just listed two links for David to tell me which are funded by “Big Pharma.”.

        So really, getting hung up on the most common metal element on this planet’s crust is fruitless when the evidence shows that the vaccines are thousands times safer than the diseases. Next thing you will be telling us is to fear aluminum cans, aluminum chain link fences, sand paper, rubies and airplanes. Or that the sodium chloride in the vaccines are at dangerous levels.

        But before you do that, just show us the evidence that the DTaP causes more harm than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (the one killed ten babies in California last year). With real evidence, and not goal post moving gambits on individual ingredients. Plus no more side stepping issues like “todays’s kids are sicker than before”, though I challenge you to walk into your local high school and pick out the “canaries.” Because the last time I got caught up in the hall between classes there were lots of lively kids, and none of them were dead.

  34. Lisa says:

    “So really, getting hung up on the most common metal element on this planet’s crust is fruitless when the evidence shows that the vaccines are thousands times safer than the diseases.”-Chris

    I am not concerned with the natural abundance of aluminum in the environment or consumed naturally in the food we eat and air we breathe. I believe I have made it clear that it is the intentional injection of the aluminum at high levels (injected, not consumed) in vaccines that have not been studied and determined as safe levels.

    “Next thing you will be telling us is to fear aluminum cans, aluminum chain link fences, sand paper, rubies and airplanes”-Chris

    Thanks for the sarcasm.

    “But before you do that, just show us the evidence that the DTaP causes more harm than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (the one killed ten babies in California last year). -Chris

    Interesting enough that the 9 out of 10 babies who died were Hispanic and we know nothing of their medical history or that of the mother’s of these children. All that is reported is that they were all under two months of age. I think a proper reporting would include medical history, medical care, misdiagnosis rates, etc.

    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisReport2011-05-16.pdf

    “With real evidence, and not goal post moving gambits on individual ingredients. Plus no more side stepping issues like “todays’s kids are sicker than before”, though I challenge you to walk into your local high school and pick out the “canaries.” Because the last time I got caught up in the hall between classes there were lots of lively kids, and none of them were dead.”-Chris

    I do not believe I need to apologize for my concerns on individual ingredients being directly injected into my infant. Any normal, intelligent person would question these and look for the CDC, FDA, AAP studies to back up the safety of these ingredients at the levels and process in which they are given. And when they find that no such studies exist on safety of levels administered or safety of multiple vaccines given at once, or long term effects of these ingredients on the body, then I think it is pretty clear why parents and doctors are concerned and asking questions.

    • Chris says:

      Interesting enough that the 9 out of 10 babies who died were Hispanic and we know nothing of their medical history or that of the mother’s of these children. All that is reported is that they were all under two months of age. I think a proper reporting would include medical history, medical care, misdiagnosis rates, etc.

      Since California was a Spanish colony prior to being the Republic of California, many people with Spanish derived names are from families that were there centuries ago. You did not even come close to answering the question on the relative safety of DTaP versus pertussis, but you did reveal that you are racist.

      Still, you really ought to contact Gayle DeLong and do an aluminum in vaccines study together. She has shown up here.

      • Lisa says:

        The CDC reported the ethnicity. I suppose they are racist as well. I guess I can believe you have resorted to name calling. Terrible. I am not racist. I will not respond to you again.

      • Chris says:

        And you decided it was pertinent is trying to get out of providing evidence that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than pertussis.

  35. C. long says:

    Wow. I was given this site by a pro vaccine guy to give me info.. All I can say now Chris, is that you have reinforced my anti vaccine with all your dodging… Thanks Lisa and Child health and vinoman for you links and such and rebutting Chris… And Chris not rebutting hardly a thing with any sense.

    • Chris says:

      So will you then give me the data that shows vaccines are more harmful than their diseases? What evidence do you have that the amount of aluminum salts in vaccines is dangerous, considering that you consume more per day in your diet?

      • C. long says:

        I’m not here to GIVE information. I was sent here by one of your friends to waylay my fears and apprehension of vaccines in this new day and age. You need to direct those questions elsewhere, but I cant blame them for giving up on you after reading all the involved posts and all your dodging. I even showed them to a pro vaccine friend who shook their head at you.

        I was told this was a comprehensive cornucopia of reliable information from a knowledgeable person. I see nothing from your attitude or stance or information to support that in the least.

        My angst has NOT been relieved with your attempt at sugarcoating Big Pharma. Pax.

      • Chris says:

        Actually this would be a better site:
        http://www.historyofvaccines.org/

    • Chris says:

      Oh, and I should not forget the question that Mr. Miller and/or Mr. Stone of ChildHealthSafety completely dodged:

      Why did the rate of measles in 1970 only 10% of the rate in 1960 in the USA? See the table I provided from census data above. Please document your answer well, thank you.

      • C. long says:

        As I said, I am a mere layperson seeking info. Not giving it. it is YOUR job to give comprehensive accurate info. that WAS the idea of this site and what was purported to me by your colleague. I haven’t seen it. thanks and bye

      • Chris says:

        I’m sorry, I am just a person who comments here. You are the one who is now dodging questions.

        Read the article, it does not even pretend to be a source of comprehension accurate information. That is what the list of links are in the article are for. Click on them.

      • C. long says:

        Im sorry. It said uptop you were a contributing writer… My bad. The guy who did write this then should be ashamed you are speaking for them. Either way, anything you say or give me IMO is complete bunk. I would trust nothing coming out of your mouth. But thats okay. You have a good life.

      • Chris says:

        You came here to insult me and bait me, and it failed. You claimed I dodged questions when in fact I answered many of them, and you actually dodged the questions I posed to your friends.

        You neither read the article, nor saw that it was a three year old article. You know there are other more relevant scientific sites like the ones mentioned in the article, plus immunize.org, Autism Science Foundation, justthevax, infectedby.us (the pathogenposse’s new home), vaccinetimes epiren and several others. You did not come here with any honest purpose (especially since you changed your story).

        I don’t mind. I will still keep asking those questions that your friends refuse to answer.

        (I still wonder why Lisa thought it was relevant to bring up that most of the babies who died from pertussis were Hispanic, especially a state which used to be a former Spanish colony, and why she even thought it was an answer to my question)

      • C. long says:

        No. I did not come here to bait you. I was in a vaccine argument discussion with someone on my facebook who is a “scientist” who said he recommended this site as he knew the people. So i told him I would read it. I even read all the comments. YOU are the one dodging things IMO and not answering serious questions with real answers. I am telling you this because as a person being sent here to alleviate concerns over vaccines, that due to you, this was not done and I am even more in belief that people like you choose to hide things (and I am one ,BTW who is not convinced autism is completely vaccine related. I have other much more major concerns, so I am not here to argue autism.)

        As I said, I give not a whit about you and yours. You are NOT that important. I was saying this for anyone else who wanders in that you may wish to be less…something… if you want to really convince anyone. pax

      • Chris says:

        Okay, please repeat the questions I am dodging, because I have no idea what you are talking about. But before you do, answer the one that Mr. Miller and/or Mr. Stone of ChildHealthSafety absolutely refused to answer:

        Why did the measles rate decrease by 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA? See the census data I have provided at least once on this discussion (graph here). Give us some documentation to support your answer.

        That will show you want an actual honest discussion.

      • Chris says:

        Also, Mr/Ms Long, I noticed I did not answer the one on smallpox. If you think that is true that the 1970s smallpox eradication is a lie, then please post the scientific literature that supports that statement. Show us exactly how sanitation was so much better for controlling smallpox.

        Make sure it is more current than the book published in 1912 that Mr. Stone and/or Mr. Miller referenced. Medicine has advanced a bit in the last 99 years, and it was even a bit more advanced the sixty years after that book was published.

        The rest I have answered to the best of my ability. It is not “dodging” the question when the person just does not like the answer.

  36. TechSkeptic says:

    Well this was fun.

    Chris, I totally see where you are coming from, especially with the history of your child. Sorry about that. I did not have something similar but I did notice behavioral differences in my child with respect to other children long before her vaccines. I suspect that most parents with autistic children never knew what to look for in their children before the vaccine and have been conditioned to blame the vaccines if anythng goes wrong (goes to your point about injecting saline into 1 trimester pregnant women and then blaming that injection on the 1200 miscarriages that would occur ever year 24 hours after the shot).

    I mean even ardent, prominent, anti-vaxxers cant keep their story straight about when the symptoms of autism start with relation to the shots.

    http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2011/01/the-very-confused-jb-handley.html

    I also see how your style (and the style most skeptics, including myself) puts these folks into defense and then both your eyes and ears and their eyes and ears stop working. Some of the concerns that I read above were covered in this post:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/nine-questions-nine-answers/#more-5025

    However it was written to a naturopath (and in the same snarky, sarcastic tone we skeptics are known for) here:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/nine-questions-nine-answers/#more-5025

    And a couple of other good posts that are very complete and highly supported are here
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/ (high snark level)

    Here is another one which specifically answers the questions about aluminum levels in IV solutions vs vaccine injections.

    http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.php#Other_Vaccine_Additives

    The reason IV aluminum levels must be lower is because they are intended to be designed to be given continuously for weeks as opposed to a single shot (or multiple shots) in one day, most of which is excreted in 5 days. This is why huge aluminum intake from scrapes of the knee are not considered dangerous. Further, the IV levels must be low because it is given to people who have kidney damage.

    The truth is that there is data that shows high levels of Al in the blood can cause toxicity which shows itself in a variety of ways. none of those ways include autism. Its also quite true that injections every day of the Al concentration available will most certainly be toxic. However this is not what is done. These injections are given very infrequently and a healthy body is extremely good at ridding ourselves of many bad actors, even ones that enter the bloodstream.

    I am a skeptic. And truthfully that style of debate is what made me start understanding vaccines as much as I do now and am quite comfortable with them and wish antvaxxers would get their own island somewhere (with sanitation and healthy food). But this is obviously not to be.

    Unfortunately I don’t think that style of debate works on most people as can be clearly seen above in the pages of discourse.

    On autism, the thing that keeps me quite comfortable with vaccines is simply that most of increase in autism diagnoses are attributable to diagnoses substitution and widening of the autism spectrum. i.e. there isnt a physical cause of the increase in autism, its simply how we are catagorizing it.

  37. Lisa says:

    It is relevant because Hispanic children have the highest rates of contracting pertussis in the US (compared to other ethnicities) REGARDLESS OF VACCINATION STATUS OR SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS and no one seems to know why. CDC website. Look it up.
    Oh and I see you are still playing the whole aluminum in your diet card.
    Have a wonderful day.

    • Chris says:

      Actually, no. If you had the website you would have posted it.

      Here is the latest report from California:
      http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisReport2011-06-15.pdf

      Sure the highest numbers for infants under six months are Hispanic, but even if they had followed the whole vaccine schedule they would not be fully protected until their first birthday. Now look at Figure 4, what bar is equal to or greater than the other bars after age six months?

      And exactly how does that answer the question that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis? Other than to enforce data that pertussis is dangerous to infants because they are not fully protected. As for why it is families with Spanish or Portuguese last names, there is not sufficient data. Which makes their genealogy a pointless side step. Figure 4 does point out that herd immunity needs to be strengthened in order to protect babies, six year old and older children should not be getting pertussis (teenager and adults need Tdap boosters).

      So it is up to you to provide actual evidence that the DTaP is more dangerous than the diseases. No side stepping into results that babies actually die from the disease, stick to harm from the vaccine versus the disease. Provide the journal, title, date and author of the papers that support your claims. Also, please make sure that it is on the DTaP that is presently used in the USA, and not any other vaccine that is for those three diseases. And please make sure it is not by anyone who presently has their medical license suspended or is looking at charges of practicing medicine without a license. Thank you.

    • Chris says:

      Just so you know, whenever someone brings up that most of the babies in California who died from pertussis were Hispanic, it makes it seem that person is claiming their deaths are not important. In other words, it is okay that Hispanic babies died because they are not like that person’s kids. Since I spent a good chunk of my youth actually living in South and Central America I find that notion especially offensive.

      That may not be what you are trying to convey, but it comes across that way. I suggest you avoid that comment in the future. And stick to answering the actual question that was asked:

      What real scientific evidence do you have that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis? Give the real risks, not that a certain demographic is more affected.

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